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Post by Steve on Aug 16, 2015 12:22:12 GMT -5
Many GMs have expressed concerns about teams tanking to obtain a better draft position in the annual GMHL Entry Draft. We've adopted what the NHL does over the past couple of years; however, the NHL is changing how they conduct the lottery beginning in the 2016 season. Please read over the following as I'd like to a adapt a modified version of what the NHL will be doing: There will be a 3 round Entry Draft each year commencing in late June/early July, at a mutually agreed upon date. All players that have been draft eligible in the past and who remain under the 100/50 game limit for Skaters/Goalies respectively, can be picked in the Entry Draft, as well as any player from the current year's NHL Entry draft. The Draft Lottery order for the first 6 slots shall be for the 6 teams that miss the playoffs with the determination of the order of the picks determined much in the same manner that will be used by the NHL in the spring of 2016, with a slight modification. For the first overall pick, these 6 teams will be selected in a random manner by a Fantasy Draft Order Generator, such as found on fftoolbox ( www.fftoolbox.scout.com/draft_order_generator.cfm) and assigned according to the reverse order of the NHL final regular season standings. That means that the winner from fftoolbox would be assigned the worst NHL team and so on. Since the NHL uses the 14 teams that miss the playoffs, we will do the same thing for our entire league. For the 7th to 14th pick, it will be the reverse order of the GMHL regular season with the provision that the GMHL playoff champion will pick last in each round. For the second overall pick, the NHL will also start using the lottery in 2016, so we'll use fftoolbox a second time to determine the order of placement, just as we did for the first pick. For the 2nd and 3rd rounds, the order will based on the reverse order of the regular season standings, with the playoff champ once again selecting last in both of these rounds. If you're a playoff bubble team and we (Glenn as co-Commish and I) determine that you're tanking on purpose to get into the Draft Lottery, you will automatically be eliminated from garnering a chance at the 1st or 2nd overall pick. |
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Post by Steve on Aug 16, 2015 12:26:41 GMT -5
What this proposed change does is give each team that misses the playoffs a 1 in 6 chance of obtaining the best chance at the 1st overall pick in the lottery. This will also be done to determine the best chance at the 2nd best lottery pick. We will still follow whatever occurs in the Draft Lottery that the NHL conducts whereby all teams have a chance, at least in theory, at the 1st overall pick.
The last place team in the league will be guaranteed no less than the 3rd overall pick.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 12:58:05 GMT -5
I rather have it just like NHL does and have each of the 14 teams have a chance at #1 #2 & #3 overall. With each team being assigned an NHL team, and the first 3 picks in the first round being tied to the NHL draft lottery. It makes it interesting and tanking really isn't an issue as the last place team only has 20% chance anyway.
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Post by Steve on Aug 16, 2015 14:31:01 GMT -5
So you'd rather follow exactly as the NHL does it rather than concentrating on just the non-playoff teams here; correct? That's an interesting take too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 14:48:11 GMT -5
Yes, so everyone even the league champion would have 1% chance at #1 overall. Would make things interesting and balanced. IMO.
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Post by Stu on Aug 16, 2015 18:24:57 GMT -5
I rather have it just like NHL does and have each of the 14 teams have a chance at #1 #2 & #3 overall. With each team being assigned an NHL team, and the first 3 picks in the first round being tied to the NHL draft lottery. It makes it interesting and tanking really isn't an issue as the last place team only has 20% chance anyway. 8 teams (57%) make the playoffs in the GMHL and 6 (43%) don't 16 teams (53%) make the playoffs in the NHL and 14 (47%) don't All 14 teams (47%) in the NHL that don't make the playoffs get a shot at moving lower in the draft and 16 (53%) don't All 14 teams (100%) in the GMHL get a shot at moving lower in the draft and ZERO don't (this should clearly be 43%) If all 14 teams (100%) in the GMHL are given a shot moving up in the draft then shouldn't all 14 teams (100%) in the GMHL make the playoffs? The answer is a huge NO cause its down right ridiculous. I don't see how rewarding teams that make the playoffs in our league by giving them a shot to move lower in the draft makes any sense. There's no way this should ever be considered. All moves in this league are public and are easily tracked on yahoo or the proboards. If a gm is tanking for better odds at moving lower come the end of the year then it will be pretty obvious and that situation will have to get handled by Steve and Glenn. |
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Post by Ryan on Aug 16, 2015 21:02:13 GMT -5
Yes to Steve and Glenn's proposal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:45:37 GMT -5
The problem isn't necessarily the lottery system, it is the manager that is trying to tank.
If we spot a manager that is tanking, why don't we just take away his draft pick or kick him out of the league?
If we mess with the actual system, it sucks for guys who actually have bad teams and then get bad luck by not receiving the first (or second) overall pick when someone who barely missed the playoffs could get rewarded with that top pick.
So I vote to reprimand the culprit actually doing the tanking, and not the system.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 16:24:14 GMT -5
I'm with Stu and Ducks in this. If we have a team tanking giver them the boot. Playoff teams should not have a chance to move up in the Draft as they all have a chance to win the league and the millions of dollars that go with it. I have left 2 leagues this past year because of teams tanking and weak Commishes doing dick about it. We need hard and fast rules that are sustained by the Commishes.
From what I have seen so far Steve and Glenn are top rate and we are lucky. This is not ass kissing, just an observation from a veteran player.
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Post by Ryan on Aug 17, 2015 16:49:05 GMT -5
Fellas, doesn't Steve and Glenn's proposal directly address the issue of playoff teams getting top picks? From how I read this proposal:
- Only non-playoff teams will be picking #1-6
- The best pick any playoff team will have is #7
- The champ will always pick last in each round
Of course, this changes if a playoff team owns a non-playoff team's 1st round pick; then the playoff team also owns all the rights to the high pick that the non-playoff team traded away.
I really don't see the tanking issue as directly related to what we are voting on here. The tanking issue is more solved by the two lottery systems for #1 and #2 overall. What we are essentially voting on here is whether to restrict all playoff teams from ever selecting #1-6 in the first round. I guess we are also voting on the two-lottery system for #1 and #2 overall but you get my point...
Please let me know if I am way off here.
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Post by Stu on Aug 17, 2015 17:30:56 GMT -5
Fellas, doesn't Steve and Glenn's proposal directly address the issue of playoff teams getting top picks? From how I read this proposal: - Only non-playoff teams will be picking #1-6 - The best pick any playoff team will have is #7 - The champ will always pick last in each round Of course, this changes if a playoff team owns a non-playoff team's 1st round pick; then the playoff team also owns all the rights to the high pick that the non-playoff team traded away. I really don't see the tanking issue as directly related to what we are voting on here. The tanking issue is more solved by the two lottery systems for #1 and #2 overall. What we are essentially voting on here is whether to restrict all playoff teams from ever selecting #1-6 in the first round. I guess we are also voting on the two-lottery system for #1 and #2 overall but you get my point... Please let me know if I am way off here. I was only going off on what Anthony posted. I don't have any issue with what Steve posted and what's being voted on. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:58:05 GMT -5
I'm in.
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Post by Steve on Aug 17, 2015 18:27:45 GMT -5
I don't think we've really had an apparent tanking issue in this league. Mind you, I don't check for this too often either as it is very time intensive and I just don't have the time to check lineups every day. It comes down to self-policing more than anything.
The idea behind this is to stop teams from racing to the bottom, which would usually be very apparent. If a GM really wanted to tank, he could do it easily enough by just sitting out a key player every now and then, enough so that they do indeed lose a lot more than they win.
I've seen many leagues get ruined by tanking and by putting in a rule such as this, it further dissuades the possibility of tanking being that beneficial to a team. Now the way we all trade, often times teams do acquire top picks, with this year being a very good example of this.
If you look back at the history of the draft lottery I believe that no team better than 8th place has ever won the draft lottery and I think that happened once. There has been 2 occasions, perhaps 3, where the 7th placed team has won the draft lottery; however, with the new way the NHL is doing the draft lottery, I believe the chances of this occurring are minimized even more.
If I do see or become aware of a team tanking, you can rest assure that I'll mention it to him. If I have to mention it again, the GM will get a warning and a third offence will see his 1st round pick become the last pick of the 1st round. Glenn and I will talk over what should happen to a GM should he continue to tank and we will replace anyone we feel needs replacing.
Hopefully with rules like my proposal, should you guys agree with it, it makes it harder for a team to tank. This is more a preventive measure than anything else as I don't think we have anyone here that would intentionally tank.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 15:43:55 GMT -5
Can someone tell me the difference between tanking and committing to a rebuild?
Can someone tell me how you can police and differentiate the two?
I am not meaning to be a dick, I am genuinely curious.
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Post by Ryan on Aug 18, 2015 16:20:04 GMT -5
I would say that committing to a rebuild is making valuable, even, trades for players and picks that will benefit your squad's future; while still starting the strongest lineup possible every day. Someone in a rebuild should still have the know-how to not only build up the farm, but also not completely demolish the pro team so they are still filling every roster spot in their starting lineup, as competitive as possible.
I would say that tanking is intentionally not starting a full lineup on a regular basis, intentionally sitting star players in favour of lesser players, making widely unbalanced trades to flush their roster, and not doing everything in their power as a GM to be as competitive as possible throughout the year.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 18:02:36 GMT -5
Can someone tell me the difference between tanking and committing to a rebuild? Can someone tell me how you can police and differentiate the two? I am not meaning to be a dick, I am genuinely curious. Generally giving up by not setting yer lineup and tossing players away for next to nothing.. Sent from my SGH-I337M using proboards |
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2015 18:05:23 GMT -5
I would say that committing to a rebuild is making valuable, even, trades for players and picks that will benefit your squad's future; while still starting the strongest lineup possible every day. Someone in a rebuild should still have the know-how to not only build up the farm, but also not completely demolish the pro team so they are still filling every roster spot in their starting lineup, as competitive as possible. I would say that tanking is intentionally not starting a full lineup on a regular basis, intentionally sitting star players in favour of lesser players, making widely unbalanced trades to flush their roster, and not doing everything in their power as a GM to be as competitive as possible throughout the year. I would say that Ryan covered it pretty much here. If you look at all the trades he made at the deadline last year, he acquired a couple of very good 1st round picks and very good prospects. He traded Shattenkirk and received Nurse, Ceci, Kapanen and the 2016 Charlestown 1st, which through no fault of Dale's, will likely be a very good pick next year. For Backes, Ryan received Domi, Ritchie and what turned out to be the 2nd overall pick in the 2015 draft which was used to choose Eichel. For a rebuilding team, Ryan now has some excellent prospects and still owns some top picks in the 2016 prospect draft. With tanking, you can be sly about not starting your stars in favour of lesser players or even sitting a star on the bench for just one game. |
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2015 18:10:58 GMT -5
Fellas, doesn't Steve and Glenn's proposal directly address the issue of playoff teams getting top picks? From how I read this proposal: - Only non-playoff teams will be picking #1-6 - The best pick any playoff team will have is #7 - The champ will always pick last in each round Of course, this changes if a playoff team owns a non-playoff team's 1st round pick; then the playoff team also owns all the rights to the high pick that the non-playoff team traded away. I really don't see the tanking issue as directly related to what we are voting on here. The tanking issue is more solved by the two lottery systems for #1 and #2 overall. What we are essentially voting on here is whether to restrict all playoff teams from ever selecting #1-6 in the first round. I guess we are also voting on the two-lottery system for #1 and #2 overall but you get my point... Please let me know if I am way off here. Just to put it out there, we could limit the draw for the 1st six lottery positions to the teams that miss the playoffs. For picks 7-14, they would be slotted in the reverse order of the regular season finish. This way, it would guarantee that the 1st and 2nd overall pick would go to a non-playoff team. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 20:09:02 GMT -5
Why don't we just leave the Draft Lottery as is and deal with tankers as they come up? It's not hard to pick out when a team is tanking on purpose - not setting your line-up, not starting star players, making stupid trades or just telling everyone you are tanking on purpose to get a better pick because all your star players were hurt....
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Post by Stu on Aug 18, 2015 20:17:58 GMT -5
Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't last year the year to tank with all the stud prospects in the draft??Why is this issue coming up now?? I know the nhl is changing the way they do their draft but do we have to?? Nothing was even mentioned about it during past seasons. We got rid of shitty gm's and added new ones so I don't think tanking will be an issue.
Steve you said
"it would guarantee that the 1st and 2nd overall pick would go to a non-playoff team."
Don't you think the teams that finish out of the playoffs and in the bottom 6 should all be guaranteed a bottom 6 draft pick no matter what. Teams that make the playoffs shouldn't have an opportunity to move into a top 6 position no matter what. Maybe i'm just misunderstanding you?
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2015 20:44:18 GMT -5
For the past couple of years we followed what the NHL did. I believe in both years that all 14 teams in the GMHL actually had at least a mathematical chance of getting the number 1 pick overall. If it wasn't both years, it was a definite possibility for sure this past spring. As I said in an earlier post, an 8th place team actually won the draft lottery one year; however, at that time, a team could only move up 4 positions.
The limitation to moving up only 4 positions doesn't exist any longer; however, there is still a possibility, albeit a very small possibility, that a playoff team could win the draft lottery and pick 1st overall. This is why I suggested that we look at only making non-playoff teams the only teams eligible to pick 1st to 6th.
I still this is a good idea because there should be no guarantee that if you finish last you get the 1st overall pick. It is too easy to tempt fate. I'm not saying it is going to happen, but if anybody was ever considering it, well this plan would put a stop to any possible chicanery.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 20:46:18 GMT -5
You are just misunderstanding him I believe, he agrees with your position. (which is wrong lol) In a perfect world we should reward the winner of the championship with the #1 overall pick. But since you guys will never go for that, having everyone in the lotto for 1st overall weighted like NHL does is the fairest solution. The whole idea of rewarding a poor team is stupid.
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Post by Steve on Aug 18, 2015 20:47:46 GMT -5
To answer your question about why bring it up now; well the easy answer here is that in 2 of my other leagues, there were teams that were obviously tanking. In my opinion, the GMs that tanked pretty much got off scott-free and were able to draft McJesus.
I think a little preventive medicine goes a long way towards ensuring it can't happen here in any future years.
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Post by Ryan on Aug 22, 2015 17:37:27 GMT -5
In a perfect world we should reward the winner of the championship with the #1 overall pick. The whole idea of rewarding a poor team is stupid. |
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Post by Steve on Aug 27, 2015 17:38:20 GMT -5
The vote for changing how we conduct the Draft Lottery is carried.
One small point to make here is that that only the picks from the non-playoff teams are eligible for the 1st over all pick. If the Draft Lottery should somehow pick the 7th or later team as the lottery winner, then we just go with the reverse order of the NHL regular season for the Prospect Draft order.
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